Is Martin Bain a twat or is the Rangers 5% fair for away

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bobby s
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Is Martin Bain a twat or is the Rangers 5% fair for away

Post by bobby s » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:54 pm

It's the Hope I can't stand

upthewell
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Post by upthewell » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:51 pm

Agreed. Grade A ring piece.

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Post by StAndrewsHMFC » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:10 am

Lets cut the lifeline for the smaller clubs that bit more....

I think the old firm need to realise that to improve the game in Scotland we need a vastly more competitive league. Squeezing more money out of Falkirk, St Mirren and Kilmarnock is not the best way to achieve this.

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Post by lbb » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:15 am

In any Rangers Twat of the Year, Martin Bain would be up there - despite stiff competition.

I've not really followed this argument, tbh. I haven't been to an away game in Scotland for 7 years and have no intention of breaking that anytime soon. From my recollection, Rangers charged punters £1 for 'processing' away tickets anyway and also held onto the dosh for as long as they could, i.e. the cash for Kilmarnock (A) in December might be collected in October and held in RFC's account for 2 months before being paid to Killie. So I really don't know where this '5%' thing is coming from.

Apart from the greed motive, I was wondering what else could be behind this scheme. I know that Rangers would prefer it if no fans travelled to European games - they were privately furious that 20,000 fans went to Barcelona. There's also the factor of possibly being held accountable for 'songs of hate' in SPL away matches - this will now fall to the home club. Bain more or less admits this on the Rangers website.

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Post by the hibLOG » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:38 am

lbb wrote:Apart from the greed motive, I was wondering what else could be behind this scheme. I know that Rangers would prefer it if no fans travelled to European games - they were privately furious that 20,000 fans went to Barcelona. There's also the factor of possibly being held accountable for 'songs of hate' in SPL away matches - this will now fall to the home club. Bain more or less admits this on the Rangers website.
:? Whaaa? So the home club will be responsible for away fans singing filth just because they sell them the tickets??? That's almost worthy of Martin Bain, that one.

And if Rangers really were worried about the repercussions of the uncontrollable awayday trash then they could simply have come out and said they were ceasing to take tickets for away fixtures altogether for that reason. But no, the reason Bain gave was the administration cost of handling the tickets, which, as you point out, they already charge for anyway. So I'm sticking with the greed and bullying spitefulness theory myself.
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Post by lbb » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:08 am

the hibLOG wrote: :? Whaaa? So the home club will be responsible for away fans singing filth just because they sell them the tickets??? That's almost worthy of Martin Bain, that one.
http://www.rangers.premiumtv.co.uk/page ... 40,00.html

Sounds like hands being washed to me -

The Rangers Chief Executive hopes that those who choose to sell to Old Firm fans directly will ensure that they take all the responsibilities which accompany this decision.

He said: "The SPL guidelines are such that every person who buys a ticket has to supply their name and address, and I now look to the SPL to ensure that while these other clubs have taken it upon themselves to sell these tickets that they record all these details. That said, it is unfortunate that I won't have the same level of awareness of whom the tickets are now being sold to.
the hibLOG wrote:And if Rangers really were worried about the repercussions of the uncontrollable awayday trash then they could simply have come out and said they were ceasing to take tickets for away fixtures altogether for that reason. But no, the reason Bain gave was the administration cost of handling the tickets, which, as you point out, they already charge for anyway. So I'm sticking with the greed and bullying spitefulness theory myself.
I think it's greed meself but was throwing in one or two possibilities that the clubs might find useful consequences of such an action. I know that taking no tickets was discussed last season. I'd also suggest that if other SPL clubs find the 'uncontrollable awayday trash' hard to accept then they could equally refuse to sell tickets to away supporters.

If it's any consolation, which it won't be, there is mass uproar about this amongst Rangers supporters.

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Post by Scottish » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:12 am

If I've understood it correctly, the OF wanted to take on the responsibility for selling tickets for away games some years ago. This was an eminently sensible step as it allowed them to keep records of who bought tickets and thus (in theory) were able to take action against troublemakers.

However, any on-costs of administering this must have been apparent at the time. Unless that is our biggest clubs are being run by administrative buffoons - and surely that can't be the case?

Therefore, if there were any justification at all for adding on an administrative surcharge, then it would surely have been implemented when the OF started selling the tickets?

Anything else would suggest a scam either to fleece their own fans or to deprive home clubs of revenue. And that can't be right either, can it?

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Post by the hibLOG » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:47 am

scottish wrote:Therefore, if there were any justification at all for adding on an administrative surcharge, then it would surely have been implemented when the OF started selling the tickets?
As it may have been, if as lbb says there is a £1 fee already. What stinks is deciding that the cost of this administration should now be borne by the home club. There's no justification for this at all. The Old Firm have massive ticketing operations in place for the sale of their own tickets. Just exactly how do you quantify the 'extra' cost of selling away tickets through that operation? You don't, because it is negligible.

The Old Firm have simply said, 'Well, we tried to screw the rest of the SPL for more TV money but we won't get any further with that right now. How else can we screw them?'

I would actually like to see some clubs simply refuse to sell any tickets to the Old Firm. In the case of Hibs and Hearts at least I actually think gates might increase as a result of having no away fans there. Wouldn't be so easy for oth clubs though, who give over up to half their ground to Old Firm fans.
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Post by Scottish » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:13 am

the hibLOG wrote:I would actually like to see some clubs simply refuse to sell any tickets to the Old Firm. In the case of Hibs and Hearts at least I actually think gates might increase as a result of having no away fans there.
This is a debate which has been going on since Methuselah's first day at primary school and possibly even before that.

One school of thought says that all the regular fans who stay away because of potential trouble would swarm back and outweigh or at least match the missing OF fans. The second says that crowds would be hit disastrously.

There's no way of knowing who is right unless someone tests the waters. I think a few matches without a big travelling support might have an effect on results (and certainly on refereeing decisions) and might make Mr Bain think again.

Certainly Hearts and Hibs (particularly the former) have less to lose than most. Hearts non-OF average last season was only 311 less than their average v the Glasgow clubs. For Hibs it was over 3,000 of a difference. But that wasn't as much as Aberdeen, Dundee United, Gretna!!!, Inverness CT, Killie, Motherwell and St Mirren. Only Falkirk of the non-OF clubs lose less fans than the Edinburgh clubs if the OF are taken out of the equation and that has much to do with their limited capacity. If they had a 10,000 seater ground their OF crowds would be similar to Killie, 'Well and the Buddies.

Proportionately, Hibs loss is actually less than Falkirk's.

In terms of actual numbers Aberdeen lose most but as a percentage of gates Kilmarnock and Motherwell are worst hit.

However the big problem is the inability of clubs to determine who is and isn't an OF fan. Given that their support extends all over Scotland who is to say whether the guy outside the ticket office at Rugby Park or Fir Park is or isn't an OF fan?

The only guaranteed way to exclude OF supporters from any game is to make entry by season ticket only. In the case of Kilmarnock that's waving goodbye to over £500,000 per season. Minimum.

It ain't going to happen. Tynecastle and Easter Road? Perhaps. Anywhere else, forget it.

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Post by lbb » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:19 am

The problem for the other clubs is unity. The Rangers website article specifically names four clubs - Falkirk, Hibs, Hearts and Dundee United - who will sell to Old Firm supporters directly. One fan on another forum has spoken to Aberdeen ticket office and they have confirmed that they will pay the 5% and allow Rangers to distribute tickets. I'd have thought Aberdeen - like Hibs and Hearts - would be big enough to absorb it themselves and distribute their own tickets. If they won't do it then there's little chance of some of the smaller clubs standing up to the Old Firm on this though I may be misjudging them.

This penny-pinching is typical of how Rangers is run nowadays. Bizarrely, despite changing their policy, they requested season-ticket holders to tick the box for away tickets on their application form as per usual. How did they anticipate supplying those tickets? How do they anticipate applying their 'priority' process to League Cup and Scottish Cup semi-finals and finals if they have no idea who has purchased tickets for previous rounds? It's, typically, an idea thought up on the back of an envelope with money the only motivation.

I can confirm that Rangers do charge £1 per away ticket - £1.50 per home ticket.

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Post by bobby s » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:45 am

Another killer for the non of teams is that almost every rangers and celtic away day has been on zitelli for the past 5 or so years meaning the double whammy of live tv coverage and the shifting of the game from 3pm saturday.

That has got to affect home attendances
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Post by Scottish » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:55 pm

bobby s wrote:That has got to affect home attendances
They have. But not perhaps the same way as you think. Not in Aberdeen & Edinburgh at any rate.

http://www.scottishleague.net/OFgates.doc

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Post by the hibLOG » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:06 pm

scottish wrote:
bobby s wrote:That has got to affect home attendances
They have. But not perhaps the same way as you think. Not in Aberdeen & Edinburgh at any rate.

http://www.scottishleague.net/OFgates.doc
I'm not sure what you mean David. The attendances at Easter Road (and Tynecastle pre-Romanov season ticket boost) are very poor and well below capacity. Same goes for Killie.

Dons fans seem to like turning out for the Old Firm - or is it just that more Old Firm fans can be bothered making the trip to Aberdeen?
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Post by Scottish » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:51 pm

Exclude Falkirk, Gretna, Inverness, Partick Thistle, St Johnstone and St Mirren. None of these clubs have played consistently in the SPL both pre and post-Setanta to make comparisons. Of the others the best seasons for attendances v the OF have been during the Setanta period for Aberdeen, Dundee United, Dunfermline, Hearts, Hibs, Motherwell. Pre-Setanta only Dundee, Kilmarnock & Livingston.

So, of nine cubs who have straddled the two periods six have seen their best gates v the OF since Setanta gained exclusive rights and three when it was BBC/Setanta and before that Sky.

Now it may well be the extension of season ticket culture is having an effect. That's certainly the case in Edinburgh as a look at crowds in general will show but nevertheless live TV has NOT reduced gates v the OF for Hearts and Hibs. And none of the others can claim big increases in season tickets.

I still think the number of travelling OF fans is declining overall but "facts are chiels that winna ding" and the only ground in the SPL with significant numbers of empty seats when the OF are in town is Rugby Park. Given that 9,000 tickets are handed over to the OF on a regular basis there (and many returned unsold) it leads me to believe that the OF can still sell most tickets for away games but there isn't as big a waiting list as there used to be. It's no longer automatic that when one fan stops going to away games another will take his place.

However, ultimately it's not possible to conduct a fully rigorous analysis of the effects of TV because even in the pre-Setanta era many OF away games were still shown live. For two seasons it was BBC Scotland with Setanta holding the rights for the rest of the UK and the ROI and before that it was Sky. Before Sky we are back in the era of terracing, larger capacities and ground reconstruction and therefore unable to make a direct comparison.

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Post by Rob » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:50 am

Clubs start talking about unfair this and the old firm are trying to fleece us again I think they need to take a good look in the mirror. They have fleeced Old Firm fans for years with inflated ticket prices.

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