need help regarding an old firm reserve attendance..

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glasgow guy
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need help regarding an old firm reserve attendance..

Post by glasgow guy » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:11 pm

Hello all, new poster here..

I am trying to find out a bit of info regarding an old firm reserve match that took place in the later 90's ( I think )....I am trying to establish what the exact attendance was - all I know is that it was 30,000 +...

been racking my brain & the net for days.....so all help welcomed.

thanks. :)

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Post by Scottish » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:31 pm

Hi there and welcome to the forum.

I know that OF reserve games are often played in front of five-figure gates but I've never heard of one in excess of 30,000.

There was an 'Old Crocks' match a few seasons ago during the SPL winter break which attracted over 20,000 and was greater than all the SFL games played that day combined but I don't have the exact date - possibly January 2001 or 2002.

And of course the Glasgow Cup used to attract big numbers even if a number of reserve players took part - the last big gate being 40,741 to see Rangers beat Celtic 3-2 in 1986. However that was never regarded as a reserve fixture as such.

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Re: need help regarding an old firm reserve attendance..

Post by nightfire » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:49 pm

glasgow guy wrote:Hello all, new poster here..

I am trying to find out a bit of info regarding an old firm reserve match that took place in the later 90's ( I think )....I am trying to establish what the exact attendance was - all I know is that it was 30,000 +...

been racking my brain & the net for days.....so all help welcomed.

thanks. :)
Was this the game played at Ibrox just after Duncan Ferguson had been released from Prison? I think the attendance was around 33,000 and finished 1-1

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Post by glasgow guy » Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:14 am

it might have been my frind - do you have any more info on it ...?

thanks very much.

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Post by tommytucker » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:56 am

Thought the dates were slightly earlier than that.
Early to mid 90s.
During the New Year break period.
Rangers allowed in season ticket holders free and at least on a couple of occasions crowds of 20000+ turned up.

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Post by lbb » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:54 am

This match maybe? August 30, 1997.

Image

There was a 20,000+ crowd in January 1994 when Duncan Ferguson equalised in another 1-1 draw. Ferguson had been injured for a couple of months so it was nothing to do with the SFA's laughable ban or the even more laughable prison sentence. These had yet to occur. I think the game was a midweek, afternoon KO too. I'll try and find an exact figure for this match but quite a few Old Firm reserve games in this period had decent attendances.

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Post by lbb » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:05 am

20,331 to be precise, according to this report in the Scotland on Sunday -

January 6, 1994: Rangers Reserves 1, Celtic Reserves 1

WHILE some of the proceeds from this afternoon's charity Auld Old Firm match at Ibrox will benefit a worthy cause, it can be argued that fans of the Glasgow clubs are more than willing to turn up in their droves given half the chance of resuming their traditional hostilities.

Such an opportunity presented itself on January 6, 1994 when 20,331 punters braved the elements for Rangers v Celtic at Ibrox. An underwhelming attendance at first glance, true. But this was a reserve fixture, setting new records for a second-string skirmish.

The pretext for this mass visitation upon Govan on a dreich day of spewing rain and swirling wind was the re-emergence in the Rangers ranks, after four months of injury-enforced absence, of one Duncan Ferguson. Big Dunc would have been glad to see the back of 1993, the year in which he achieved the uncanny ability of never quite managing to stay outwith the clutches of the newspapers and their headlines.

Shattering the British transfer record in July with his pounds 4m move from Dundee United had been one surefire method of demanding attention. The pigeon-fancying was pounced on by some as a sign of eccentricity, while a cross-dressing outing in Anstruther resulted in a pub punch-up with a fisherman and 12 months' probation. But in spite of the gathering 'Duncan Disorderly' reputation and the fact that he had failed so far to score a goal for his new club, the Rangers support were more eager than ever for the 21-year-old striker to do well in the blue jersey.

The few thousand Celtic fans who insisted on turning up for this one were in good humour, despite mounting club problems suffered while their rivals positively thrived. They humoured the contest throughout, making donkey braying noises in the direction of Ferguson whenever he had possession of the ball. Their summation of Rangers' financial outlay on the boy-man was transmitted via plentiful choruses of "What a Waste of Money".

Not to be outdone, the blue legions, in these pre-Fergus McCann days, hit back with acerbic chants of "Keep the board". Indeed, the crowd surpassed many Parkhead attendances of the time as Hooped supporters made their feelings clear about the Kelly/White dynasty.

Britain's costliest footballer was joined in the home 11 by Oleg Kusnetsov and Peter Huistra, and those donning the hoops included Mike Galloway and Frank McAvennie. It is also worth noting the name of Celtic's substitute goalkeeper - Shay Given - surely a case of 'the one that got away'.

With Rangers having underestimated the level of interest in the match, the kick-off was duly delayed by 40 minutes as officials struggled to cope with the volume of fans streaming through the turnstiles. The Govan and then the Copland Road stand were opened, and the stewards were still ushering late-comers to their seats with the match already under way for half-an-hour.

Mark McNally had already struck for Celtic inside the second minute, but most eyes were on the giant No9, who was considered one of Scotland's brightest hopes...before he cut all ties with the international team after receiving a 12-match SFA ban for head- butting Raith Rovers' John McStay.

Fergie's first contribution was an early booking for elbowing Malky Mackay. A later miskick led to another outbreak of hee-hawing from the stands. But with 12 minutes left he seized the moment, meeting David Hagen's cross to break his scoring duck.

Rangers: Scott, Wishart, Vinnicombe, Kuznetsov, Reid, Miller, Huistra, Robertson, Hagen, Ferguson, Morrow. Subs: Wilson, Fotheringham, Inglis (gk)

Celtic: Kerr, Vata, McQuilken, McNally, Mackay, Galloway, Byrne, Creaney, Biggins, McAvennie, McLaughlin. Subs: Smith, McStay, Given (gk)

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Post by The Mighty Atom » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:42 pm

Changed days indeed what with record-breaking signings and USSR internationalists.

Any particular reason why over 30,000 turned up for that reserve match in '97? An incredible figure. I think the Glasgow Cup final at Ibrox in 1986 (McCoist hat-trick?) also brought in a massive crowed redolent of ye olden days.

Not sure if I agree with the 'laughable' nature of the sentence meted out to Duncan Disorderly. He was already on probation for acts of violence and then head-butted an opponent* when the ball wasn't in play. What did he think would happen? At least he wasn't banned sine die, like another notorious Ibrox who was fond ae the Glesgae kiss. He should be grateful.


* Heard recently that Jock McStay does general painting/maintenance work at Celtic Park. Whether the scars are still visible . . .

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Post by Scottish » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:06 pm

lbb wrote: the even more laughable prison sentence.
Couldn't agree more. Far too soft a sentence for such a persistent thug.

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Post by lbb » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:34 am

The Mighty Atom wrote: Any particular reason why over 30,000 turned up for that reserve match in '97?
The first team Old Firm fixture wasn't scheduled to take place until Monday, 1 September (of course it didn't take place at all due to the death of Princess Diana that night) so that would have given a free Saturday for lots of people. The possibility of seeing stars of the future like Stuart McCall and Gary Bollan would have been too powerful to resist for some people.
The Mighty Atom wrote:An incredible figure. I think the Glasgow Cup final at Ibrox in 1986 (McCoist hat-trick?) also brought in a massive crowed redolent of ye olden days.
That's true but this was effectively a first team fixture which came on the back of i) Celtic winning the League at Love Street and ii) Graeme Souness being appointed manager of Rangers. These events would have generated heightened interest in the fixture.
The Mighty Atom wrote:Not sure if I agree with the 'laughable' nature of the sentence meted out to Duncan Disorderly. He was already on probation for acts of violence and then head-butted an opponent* when the ball wasn't in play. What did he think would happen?
He could have been sent off. That's generally what happens when a bad foul is committed on the field of play. There was nothing exceptional about the challenge that warranted a prison sentence AND a 12-game ban. Around the same time, several commentators noted that Bobby Williamson of Kilmarnock had, while obviously going for the ball, elbowed some hapless Aberdeen player in the face at Pittodrie. I can't remember whether he was ever sent off for this or received a 12-game ban for it. He certainly didn't go to prison for it.

Let's remember the view of Lord Justice McFadyen who stated that the SFA 'acted outside its powers' by imposing the ban and that the SFA needed to 'completely rethink' its disciplinary procedures.

Let's remember the view of Everton secretary Michael Dunford who noted that "in my experience I cannot remember another custodial sentence ever being dished out to a player for an offence on the field."
The Mighty Atom wrote:* Heard recently that Jock McStay does general painting/maintenance work at Celtic Park. Whether the scars are still visible . . .
How appropriate. No matter how hard he cleans, though, he can't wash away the sin of shame.

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Post by lbb » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:44 am

scottish wrote: Couldn't agree more. Far too soft a sentence for such a persistent thug.
Image

Given the collection of alleged footballers - Ross Tokely, Darren Dods, John Paul Potter, Zander Diamond, Martin Hardie - that will 'grace' the Scottish scene next season, I find this comment highly amusing.

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Post by Scottish » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:37 am

lbb wrote: He certainly didn't go to prison for it.
I think he pleaded mitigating circumstances. Exemplary behaviour in taxi ranks or something similar.

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Post by lbb » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:02 am

scottish wrote: I think he pleaded mitigating circumstances. Exemplary behaviour in taxi ranks or something similar.
Boaby broke his leg whilst 'tired and emotional' and 'socialising with friends' in Australia, lest we forget.

The PF's office were NOT acting in the public interest in this case. The level of junkies and neds roaming Glasgow city centre in broad daylight is testament to this continued failure of public policy. It was the equivalent of unblocking a sink on the Titanic.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:09 pm

Ferguson should never have been brought to public trial for such a relatively innocuous event on a football field. He WAS victimised to an extent. The offence certainly didn't merit a 12 match ban either.

However, the general argument by Ferguson apologists that he was jailed for a footballing incident ignores the fact that he was ALREADY ON PROBATION for previous offences of violence and all was taken into account when he was sentenced.

He should have been red carded and received an appropriate and consistent ban for it (1, 2, 3 games, whatever). The PF should never have been near it.

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Post by lbb » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:09 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote:Ferguson should never have been brought to public trial for such a relatively innocuous event on a football field. He WAS victimised to an extent. The offence certainly didn't merit a 12 match ban either.
Indeed. 12 matches? You'd think he'd put someone out the game for 3 years (which, of course, instead gets you a yellow card and a job as an SFA coach).
Skyline Drifter wrote:However, the general argument by Ferguson apologists that he was jailed for a footballing incident ignores the fact that he was ALREADY ON PROBATION for previous offences of violence and all was taken into account when he was sentenced.
I could understand this argument if you didn't then go on to concede that what happens on the football field is no business of the police or the PF. If this is the case then the private conduct of the footballer is utterly irrelevant. If we're saying this is not the case then potentially every bad challenge, stramash, flare-up, etc. has grounds for criminal charges.

Ferguson's off-field conduct is a smokescreen here. Does Derek Riordan run the risk of imprisonment every time he flies into a late challenge on the grounds that, away from the field, he's a schemie ned that is known to the police?
Skyline Drifter wrote:He should have been red carded and received an appropriate and consistent ban for it (1, 2, 3 games, whatever). The PF should never have been near it.
I'm not even convinced it was a red but it could have been. Alan Thompson was once sent off against Rangers for a similar challenge on Peter Lovenkrands. Lovenkrands made the most of the incident, if truth be told, and Thompson was unlucky to be sent off. I distinctly recall saying this at the time. There was nothing in it just as there was nothing much in the Ferguson/McStay incident.

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