A. Scott Duncan

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tonypark
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A. Scott Duncan

Post by tonypark » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:18 pm

I'm looking for league and cup appearances/goals for Adam Scott Duncan (b. Dumbarton 2.11.1888) who started in junior circles with Shettleston before joining Dumbarton in c1906.

He was transferred to Newcastle United in March 1908 and then returned to Scotland in c1913 to join Rangers.

After guesting for Celtic during the war (?) he later appeared for Dumbarton (c1918-1920) and Cowdenbeath (c1920-1922).

He may even have had a third spell at Dumbarton in c1922-23 but I have not confirmed this.

Any statistics would be appreciated and dates he arrived and left would be a nice bonus! :-)

ScottishFA
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Re: A. Scott Duncan

Post by ScottishFA » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:36 am

There is a full career rundown in An Alphabet of the Celts:

Adam Scott Mathieson Duncan
b Dumbarton 2 Nov 1888; d 3 Oct 1975

Dumbarton Academy, Dumbarton Oakvale, Dumbarton Corinthians, Clydebank Juniors, Shettleston Juniors, Dumbarton (Nov 1905), Newcastle Utd (Mar 1908), Rangers (Sep 1913), Royal Field Artillery (Jan 1917), Celtic on loan (Jan 1919), Partick Thistle on loan (Feb 1919), Dumbarton (July 1919), Cowdenbeath (1920), retired 1922.

Thereafter a long managerial career with Hamilton, Cowdenbeath, Manchester Utd and Ipswich, retiring 1958.

Playing stats according to John Litster's disk are as follows (league games only, apps and goals):
Dumbarton 06/07 9 (0)
Dumbarton 07/08 21 (2)
Rangers 13/14 21 (5)
Rangers 14/15 19 (2)
Rangers 15/16 32 (10)
Rangers 16/17 28 (9)
Rangers 17/18 -
Rangers 18/19 1 (0)
Celtic 18/19 2 (0)
Partick 18/19 -
Dumbarton 18/19 1
Dumbarton 19/20 27 (2)
Cowdenbeath 20/21 in Central League, stats not given
Cowdenbeath 21/22 11 (0)

tonypark
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Re: A. Scott Duncan

Post by tonypark » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:32 am

This is great…many thanks!

I don't have the Celtic book but interesting he is listed as one of their players.

I assume the 'loan' was official to have been included?

Are there any Cowdenbeath historians who may shed light on his Central League appearances?

Much appreciated.

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Re: A. Scott Duncan

Post by Scottish » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:08 pm

I can provide Newcastle stats if you don't have them already. Also more details on his managerial career - though of course you will already have his Man U record. I'm away from home at the moment with no access to my records but if you bump the thread on Monday or later I'll see it as including an unread post and respond accordingly.

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Re: A. Scott Duncan

Post by tonypark » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:57 pm

Mant thanks...

Anything on his early managerial career would be terrific.

Regards

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Re: A. Scott Duncan

Post by Scottish » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:00 pm

Hi there. Do you want Newcastle stats? This is his managerial entry from my book 'GAFFERS.'

DUNCAN, Scott 1888-1976
Hamilton Academical July 21st 1923-Aug 16th 1925
Cowdenbeath Aug 23rd 1925-Jul 1932
Honours: None

Began over thirty years as a Manager at Hamilton, joining when they were on the verge of relegation and kept them in the top flight. He moved to Cowdenbeath, then a Division One side and performed near miracles in keeping them in the big league with two sevenths and a ninth place before they began to drop into the lower half of the table when they finished thirteenth and sixteenth in the twenty-team division. But even those positions are misleading. In their worst season under Duncan, in 1929-30, there may have been only four teams below them but Cowden were eleven points clear of the drop. There was even a revival at the turn of the decade as they finished seventh in 1930-31. They were a mid-table twelfth, averaging a point per match in his final season a year later. Duncan’s best performance in the Scottish Cup came at Hamilton when he narrowly missed out on the final in 1925, his team losing a semi-final replay to Dundee. Cowdenbeath didn’t progress as far but he presided over the club’s record 12-0 win over Johnstone in that competition in 1927-28. In 1930-31 he led them to the quarter-final for the first, and to date only, time in their history, where they lost to Motherwell.

It was no surprise he was in demand on both sides of the border but his next stop was still something of a surprise. Manchester United had fallen on hard times and were stuck in the middle of Division Two when Duncan took over in the summer of 1932. It was a hard slog. Two seasons later they only avoided relegation to the Third Division by a single point. But in 1935-36 his United side won the Division Two championship though they were relegated again the next season. At this point his career took a strange turn when he moved to take charge of non-league Ipswich Town. A year later they were elected to the league and completed one season at that level before the outbreak of war. The Third Division South was a tougher league than its northern counterpart and with only one team promoted was extremely difficult to escape but Duncan finally managed it, winning the title in 1954. As at Old Trafford he found the next season harder and Ipswich failed to survive. He resigned as Manager, making way for Alf Ramsey, staying on as Secretary for another three years by which time Ipswich were back in Division Two.

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Re: A. Scott Duncan

Post by tonypark » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:49 pm

Much appreciated once again!

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Re: A. Scott Duncan

Post by Snuff » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:48 am

Scott Duncan is clearly one of these influential Scots whose light has been hidden under a bushel these many years; not least from two facts - he signed Sir Walter Winterbottom for Manchester United, and his work, as club secretary and experienced sounding board for tyro manager Sir Alf Ramsey at Ipswich.
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Re: A. Scott Duncan

Post by Scottish » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:37 pm

Snuff wrote:Scott Duncan is clearly one of these influential Scots whose light has been hidden under a bushel these many years; not least from two facts - he signed Sir Walter Winterbottom for Manchester United, and his work, as club secretary and experienced sounding board for tyro manager Sir Alf Ramsey at Ipswich.
These are the Scottish managers I am aware of who won major trophies in England. Some familiar names, others less so. . As always, caveats apply. Some weren’t born in Scotland but would be regarded by any normal application of the term as Scots. Some managed in Scotland, some didn’t. Some coached abroad, others didn’t. The only trophies listed below are those won in English football or in European & global competitions whilst managing English clubs.

The years given are those active with English league clubs (or pre-league prior to 1888). They include all league clubs managed, not just those with which trophies were won. They are not necessarily consecutive but I have ignored short term periods out of the game after a sacking etc. Wartime periods have been included in which the manager remained with the club.

Only the three major English trophies of the league championship (no matter what name it has had), the FA Cup and the League Cup have been included.

22 Alex Ferguson (Manchester United) - English Premier League 13, FA Cup 5, League Cup 4. 1986-2013.
12 George Ramsay (Aston Villa) – English First Division 6, FA Cup 6. 1884-1926
7 Matt Busby (Manchester United) – English First Division 5, FA Cup 2. 1945-1969, 1970-1971
6 Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool, Blackburn Rovers, Newcastle United, Liverpool) - English First Division 3, FA Cup 2, League Cup 1 (1985-1995, 1997-1998, 2011-2012)
6 George Graham (Millwall, Arsenal, Leeds United, Tottenham Hotspur) - English First Division 2, FA Cup 1, League Cup 3. 1982-2001
6 Frank Watt (Newcastle United) English First Division - 4, FA Cup 2. 1895-1930
5 Bill Shankly (Carlisle United, Grimsby Town, Workington Town, Huddersfield Town, Liverpool) - English First Division 3, FA Cup 2. 1949-1974
4 Tom Mitchell (Blackburn Rovers, [Woolwich] Arsenal) – FA Cup 4. 1884-1898
2 John Cochrane (Sunderland, Reading) – English First Division 1, FA Cup 1. 1928-1939
2 Tommy Docherty (Chelsea, Rotherham United, QPR, Aston Villa, Manchester United, Derby County, QPR, Preston North End, Wolverhampton Wanderers) – FA Cup 1, League Cup 1. 1961-1970, 1972-1980, 1981, 1984-1985
2 Graeme Souness (Liverpool, Southampton, Blackburn Rovers, Newcastle United) – FA Cup 1, League Cup 1. 1991-1994, 1996-1997, 2000-2006
1 John Cameron (Tottenham Hotspur) - FA Cup. 1899-1907
1 Andy Cunningham (Newcastle United) - FA Cup. 1930-1935
1 Matt Gillies (Leicester City, Nottingham Forest) – League Cup. 1958-1972
1 Duggie Livingstone (Newcastle United, Fulham, Chesterfield) – FA Cup. 1954-1962
1 Dave Mackay (Swindon Town, Nottingham Forest, Derby County, Walsall, Doncaster Rovers, Birmingham City) – English First Division. 1971-1978, 1987-1991
1 Tom Maley (Manchester City) – FA Cup. 1902-1906
1 Les McDowell (Wrexham, Manchester City, Oldham Athletic) – FA Cup. 1949-1965
1 Alex McLeish (Birmingham City, Aston Villa, Nottingham Forest) – League Cup. 2007-2013
1 Matt McQueen (Liverpool) - English First Division. 1923-1928
1 Peter McWilliam (Tottenham Hotspur, Middlesbrough, Tottenham Hotspur) - FA Cup. 1913-1942
1 Peter O’Rourke (Bradford City, Walsall) – FA Cup. 1905-1921, 1924-1925, 1928-1932
1 Willie Reid (Norwich City) – League Cup. 1961-1962

Europe
5 Alex Ferguson – Champions League 2, Super Cup 2, ECWC 1 (plus ECWC with Aberdeen)
1 Matt Busby – European Cup
1 George Graham – ECWC
1 Bill Shankly – UEFA Cup

Global
2 – Alex Ferguson – Intercontinental Cup 1, Club World Cup 1

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Re: A. Scott Duncan

Post by Scottish » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:49 pm

Scottish managers who have won major trophies on both sides of the border:

John Cochrane (St Mirren, Sunderland)
Kenny Dalglish (Celtic, Liverpool, Blackburn Rovers)
Alex Ferguson (Aberdeen, Manchester United)
Alex McLeish (Rangers, Birmingham City)
Willie Reid (St Mirren, Norwich City)
Graeme Souness (Rangers, Liverpool, Blackburn Rovers)

Ferguson is the only one of these to have won league titles in both England and Scotland.

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Re: A. Scott Duncan

Post by Scottish » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:17 pm

Domestically, both Willie Maley and Bill Struth won 30 trophies. In the EXCLUSIVELY post-war period (Struth's total including his post-war tally), Jock Stein won 25, Walter Smith 21, Scot Symon 17 & Jock Wallace 10. Ferguson's grand total is 38, consisting of thirteen English and three Scottish league titles, five English and four Scottish cup victories, four English and one Scottish league cup wins, two Champions Leagues, two ECWC triumphs, two Super Cups and the two global successes. Of current managers major trophy winners are:

5 Neil Lennon
1 Jim Jefferies
1 Danny Lennon
1 Derek McInnes
1 Jimmy Nicholl
1 Kenny Shiels

Before the end of the season and barring sackings either McInnes will have added another or Ally McCoist, Jackie McNamara or Tommy Wright will win their first, depending on who wins the Scottish Cup. If Aberdeen win it then McInnes will join an elite band of non-OF manager to have won more than one domestic trophy. He'd also be the first to do so since Alex Smith (1987 Scottish Cup with St Mirren and 1990 both cups with Aberdeen).

No pressure there then.

8 Alex Ferguson
7 Tommy Walker
3 Jim McLean
3 Hugh Shaw
3 Alex Smith
2 George Anderson
2 David Halliday
2 Dan McMichael
2 Hugh Spence
2 George Stevenson
2 Pat Travers
2 Eddie Turnbull

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