1967 Oceanic Tour 5 games updated to Full Internationals

[HibeeJibee]

I'm pretty sure it had been decided beforehand to recognise the Hong Kong League XI game.

We played 2 games in the Reunification Cup - South Africa and HKL XI - and IIRC it was felt unsatisfactory if players who happened to play game #1 got caps and those who played game #2 didn't.

(That's now "overturned" only 19yrs later).


It's pretty clear this started with PR stunt to give Sir Alex Ferguson a cap and the can of worms has grown arms 'n legs. I too would take the view that you don't rewrite history at all - but if you do, you must do it consistently, not piecemeal.

We've now got 5 tour games in 1967 counting - including irregular opponent Canadian Olympic Amateurs - but not rest. We've simaltaneously got other tours and "proper" internationals v England (1902, 1935, 1946) not counting. We've got 2 struck from 1946. We've got 1 struck from 2002 as irregular opponent, but earlier non-cap opponents stay, as do abandoned friendlies v Austria and Spain?!

Basically it's a mess, and mightn't be over - if revisions are happening essentially at the whim of individuals with access who happen to propose certain games.

[ScottishFA]

Just to provide a bit of insight into the HK 2002 match, as I was the SFA press officer at the time.

Before the players even departed for the three matches in the East, I asked SFA President Jack McGinn about the status of the Hong Kong match as we knew in advance that it was not going to be against a full national side. He thought about it and made the decision that it should count for caps, on the basis that the players were representing Scotland, and were going into the match with the same approach as for any other international.

So, like it or not, it was the decision of the SFA President, in advance of the game. Certainly nothing to do with Berti's record (he had only played two games at that point).

You could, I suppose, compare it to the Norway games of 1929: one against a West Norwegian Select, one against an East Norwegian Select. One is a full international, the other is not. No logic, but that's the way it is. There is also no logic in deciding to 'allow' the Canada Amateur match.

The way things are going, the SFA will strike off the 1872 and 1873 games as the Scotland sides were selected by Queen's Park FC.

[EastJunior]

Just catching up on this, who made these decisions and why was the Hong Kong XI match in 2002 (a game I attended) removed?

This is all very bizarre.

[ScottishFA]

Having spoken to people within the Scottish Football Museum, I have now been assured that this proposal to discount the 1946 and 2002 games will not be happening. The project was commissioned by the Museum, and never went anywhere near the SFA, while the 'historian tasked with producing this information' was John Litster himself. It was based on an idea to have a wall display in the tunnel at Hampden, with the name of every internationalist ever to play for Scotland.

I've argued the point (made above) that the games were all considered as full internationals at the time, and it would be nonsensical to remove them now. (There's been enough revision already with the misguided upgrading of the 1967 matches.)

I've also made the point that it is important to get this right, and do it definitively, in time for the 150th anniversary in November. And, for what it's worth, if there is going to be a display, the same should apply to the women's internationals, who celebrate their 50th anniversary in the same month.

[EastJunior]

Thanks Andy, in which case they really need to re-visit the Canadian Amateurs game from 1967. I can understand upgrading the three Australia matches and Israel, but Canada really has no basis. As you pointed out, the Hong Kong match probably has a better case given they were already FIFA members.

[LEATHERSTOCKING]

Good news about the 1946 internationals. Thus, Bobby Brown remains the last Queen`s Park player to be "capped" @ full international status.

[bluedragon]

I was trying to access the archive of Scotland matches on the SFA website to find how it was now recording these matches. However, when I clicked on:

SCOTLAND ARCHIVE
Search the Scotland archives for players, managers and matches..

nothing happened and it took me back to the top of the same page. The Scottish Cup archive appears to be working. Is this just me?

[ScottishFA]

It's been like that for quite a while - very frustrating and not fit for purpose. I've grumbled at various people within the SFA but nobody seems to want to take responsibility.

Meanwhile, the archive is still there despite the search function not working.

The easiest way to get in is to search a player online, and find the scottishfa.co.uk link. For example, James McFadden at https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/players/?pid=24248&lid=1

In turn, that takes you to a list of matches and the links all work, eg Scotland v France 2006: https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/internatio ... mid=62505

However, it hasn't been updated for the 1967 tour matches or the players who were upgraded. Jim McCalliog is still listed with five caps: https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/players/?pid=113807&lid=1

[bluedragon]

Andy, thanks for the confirmation about the non-access to the SFA international archive and for adding the links.

[bluedragon]

Willie Morgan was presented with a silver medal by the SFA for winning 25 international caps prior to the match against the Republic of Ireland on 24 September 2022. His cap tally is now given as 26 that confirms what we thought, i.e. that the 1967 World Tour matches against Israel, Australia (3) and the Canadian Olympic side are now considered full internationals.

At the same match the family of the late Bobby Hope were presented with a cap. It is reported that although Bobby played in two internationals (Netherlands and Denmark in 1968) he had not been given a cap as he had not played in a Home International match. Was that still the practice in 1968? EDIT: I now understand that this practice continued until 1975.

Here are the “new” caps:

5 caps

Alan Anderson (Heart of Midlothian) - Israel, Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.
Doug Fraser (West Bromwich Albion) - Israel, Australia (1) (Capt.), Australia (2) (Capt.), Australia (3) (Capt.), Canada Olympic (Capt.).
Bobby Hope (West Bromwich Albion) - Israel, Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.
Jim McCalliog (Sheffield Wednesday) - Israel, Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic (Sub.).
Willie Morgan (Burnley) - Israel, Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.

4 caps

Willie Callaghan (Dunfermline Athletic) - Israel, Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3).
Alex Ferguson (Dunfermline Athletic) - Israel, Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3).
Jim Townsend (Heart of Midlothian) - Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.

3 caps

Jim Cruickshank (Heart of Midlothian) - Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.
Jackie McGrory (Kilmarnock) - Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.
Andy Penman (Rangers) - Israel, Australia (3) (Sub.), Canada Olympic (Sub.).
Tommy McLean (Kilmarnock) - Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.
Harry Hood (Clyde) - Israel (Sub.), Australia (1), Canada Olympic.

2 caps

Harry Thomson (Burnley) - Israel, Australia (1).
Eddie Colquhoun (West Bromwich Albion) - Israel, Australia (1).
Hugh Tinney (Bury) - Australia (3) (Sub.), Canada Olympic

1 cap

Ian Ure (Arsenal) - Israel (Capt.).
Joe Harper (Huddersfield Town) - Canada Olympic.

[bluedragon]

NINETEEN players took part in the 1967 World Tour. Only one, JOHN WOODWARD (Arsenal) did not play in any of the five matches (Israel, Australia (3) and Canada Olympic) that have now been upgraded to full international status.

The remaining EIGHTEEN players now have full international appearances. Their international careers stretch from 1961-62 (Ian Ure) to 1977-78 (Joe Harper).

SIX players became full internationalists for the first time (club shown at the time):

ALAN ANDERSON (Heart of Midlothian) – (5) Israel, Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.

ALEX FERGUSON (Dunfermline Athletic) – (4) Israel, Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3).

HARRY HOOD (Clyde) – (3) Israel (Sub.), Australia (1), Canada Olympic.

HARRY THOMSON (Burnley) – (2) Israel, Australia (1).

HUGH TINNEY (Bury) – (2) Australia (3) (Sub.), Canada Olympic.

JIM TOWNSEND (Heart of Midlothian) – (4) Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.

As I now understand it until 1975 each season the SFA presented a cap to each player that had played in at least one match in that season’s British Home International Championship. If my understanding is correct then this convention, together with the decision to upgrade the World Tour matches and present a cap, means that:

FOUR players who either had already played or went on to play for Scotland at Full International level will now receive their very first cap that will be for the 1966-67 season. They are:

DOUG FRASER (West Bromwich Albion) – (5) Israel, Australia (1) (Capt.), Australia (2) (Capt.), Australia (3) (Capt.), Canada Olympic (Capt.).
He would not have received a 1967-68 or a 1968-69 cap as he did not play in the Home Internationals in those seasons although he did play in other games.

BOBBY HOPE (West Bromwich Albion) – (5) Israel, Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.
He would not have received a 1967-68 or a 1968-69 cap as he did not play in the Home Internationals in those seasons although he did play in other games.

EDDIE COLQUHOUN (West Bromwich Albion) – (2) Israel, Australia (1).
He would not have received a 1971-72 or a 1972-73 cap as he did not play in the Home Internationals in those seasons although he did play in other games.

ANDY PENMAN (Rangers) – (3) Israel, Australia (3) (Sub.), Canada Olympic (Sub.).
He would not have received a 1965-66 cap as he did not play in the Home Internationals in that season although he did play in one other game.

Only TWO players have already received a cap for each season they represented Scotland at full international level and so a 1966-67 cap will complete the set. They are:

WILLIE CALLAGHAN (Dunfermline Athletic) - (4) Israel, Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3).

IAN URE (Arsenal) - (1) Israel (Capt.).

SIX players have received caps for some seasons but not others. Even with a 1966-67 cap they will not have a complete set. They are:

TOMMY McLEAN (Kilmarnock) – (3) Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.
No cap in 1970-71 as his only match was v Denmark.

JIM CRUICKSHANK (Heart of Midlothian) – (3) Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.
No cap in 1963-64 as his only game was v West Germany. No cap in 1970-71 as the matches were v Denmark and Belgium.

JACKIE McGRORY (Kilmarnock) – (3) Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.
No cap in 1965-66 as he only played v Portugal.

JIM McCALLIOG (Sheffield Wednesday) – (5) Israel, Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic (Sub.).
No cap in 1970-71 as his only match was v Portugal.

WILLIE MORGAN (Burnley) – (5) Israel, Australia (1), Australia (2), Australia (3), Canada Olympic.
No cap in 1971-72 as he played against Peru, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and Brazil.

JOE HARPER (Huddersfield Town) – (1) Canada Olympic.
No cap in 1972-73 as his only game was against Denmark.

Only ONE player has already received a cap for the 1966-67 season:

JIM McCALLIOG played against England in the Home Internationals.

Presentations of caps have already been made prior to International matches at Hampden Park to Sir Alex Ferguson and Willie Morgan and the families of the late Alan Anderson, Harry Hood and Bobby Hope.

[ScottishFA]

I've been doing more research into the 1967 tour and have written it up:

https://www.scottishsporthistory.com/sp ... world-tour

A few details, such as sub and goal times, have not yet been verified.

The tour stats are still not on the SFA website!

[bluedragon]

Thanks for the full details (and points of dispute!) from the tour. Although there were no Scottish journalists accompanying the party, manager Bobby Brown received telephone calls from journalists at home. One match report in the Evening Times was clearly the result of such a post-match call. I have tended to give these reports more credence.